Arsenal Debate: Who are the Black Scarf Movement and what do they want?
The ‘Black Scarf Movement’, friend or foe? by TN
Should we Gooner’s feel threatened by this group or should we embrace both them and their objectives?
I’ve heard said the BSM are a small minority, not representative of the majority of Arsenal fans, they’re only doing this for profit, they’re Arsenal anarchists, they should leave the club and go elsewhere etc etc.
So the question must be, who are these people, are they profit motivated, what are their true objectives ‘profit’ or an Arsenal where the board, manager, team and fans are as one.
The BSM, a non profit organisation, was formed in 2009, today they have between 2,500 and 3,000 paid up members. This may not appear large, numerically speaking, but the fact is that not everyone joins groups and actively takes part in protests etc, even if they feel very strongly about an issue e.g the UK population over the EU and UKIP membership.
Around 10% of the BSM membership is comprised from fans living outside the UK.
So who are the guys who run the BSM?
They are all Arsenal fans who voluntarily give their time, there are no paid employees, but more than that, depending upon your current view, they are ‘true’ Arsenal fans whose convictions have led them to set up a ‘protest group’, arrange campaigns, attend Arsenal’s AGM and, as a by product, raise money for Bob Wilson’s charity, ‘the Willow Foundation’.
Other revenues raised by the group go toward flyers, advertising, website, printing etc. There are no advertisements on the BSM website.
Even if you disagree with their views, you cannot help but admire these guys for both their dedication and commitment to their cause, can you?
One of the first BSM protest marches was against ‘ridiculous season ticket price rises’, price rises of 6.5%, this at a time of great austerity. If the BSM hadn’t protested, who would have? Or should everyone keep quiet and blindly pay anything that’s asked without question? Wouldn’t AFC and every football club around the world love that?
As an aside, there were just a few hundred on that march, so would anyone claim the remaining 56,000+ fans who didn’t attend were quite happy paying that price increase? Utter nonsense!
But if you think fans should pay prices without question, who do you expect to speak up for the future of Arsenal Football Club I.e. “Junior gunners” because it certainly isn’t going to be you, is it?
The BSM have been accused of spreading disinformation concerning the board, apparently the reason for that is they wish to promote discontent amongst fans.
Firstly, why would anyone want anarchy amongst the fans, what purpose would it serve?
Secondly, if anyone was spreading false rumours etc, with information so freely available on the Internet, these could very easily be disproved.
But these rumours most often relate to the current Arsenal board and shareholders ‘milking’ money from the club.
Personally I have neither seen nor heard any false information relating to the Arsenal board and shareholders originating from the BSM.
Nowhere have I seen the BSM promoting information stating the board or shareholders have taken either loans or dividends from the club.
But there can be no argument concerning the following:
Arsenal shareholders have accumulated wealth, to the tune of, £510 million since 2008 ie at today’s share price of £17,000 per share.
Kroenke, if he decided to sell his shares today would have made nearly £300 million profit!
Ivan Gazidis earns base salary of £2.5 million.
Although no dividends have been declared to date, the consensus expectation is that they will be forthcoming.
Equally since 2008, not a single board member nor shareholder has ‘put their hand in their pocket’ and put money into the club for team strengthening etc. I personally can find absolutely no evidence whatsoever to suggest otherwise.
If the BSM are being accused of stating any of the above, then they are simply stating facts, why would anyone try to stop that?
I also heard the BSM protests are a ‘waste of time’, are they?
All BSM protests thus far have been recorded on film and are available on the Internet for personal viewing, how can that be bad?
If being a ‘waste of time’ is simply correlated to numbers, well i’ve already covered that above and it really is a naive view of life.
Following the last protest march, at the Swansea game, 500 new members joined on the day and the demand for BSM merchandise soared, to such an extent, there is now a delay in getting it out.
Within the upper echelons of AFC, two issues proposed by the BSM are apparently now being considered, ‘reforming the Clock End with season tickets’ being one. Would this issue, plus others, be considered by AFC without the BSM? This alone would suggest the BSM protests are not a waste of time!
And what are the main goals of the BSM, I asked them that question directly. Their actual reply was:
“We want each and every fan who goes through that turnstile to have faith in each and every member of the team, management, board, owner etc. To know that when the club talk about “ambition” they ARE trying to win everything. Not to hear that there’s £70m in the bank and hearing / seeing our best players leave year on year. To have a club united on the field as well as off it. We want better for the fans, for the fans to be proud of the best club in the world which is what we are.”
What Arsenal fan doesn’t want the above?
I will finish by leaving you with two thoughts.
Firstly, what would need to happen over Arsenal before you decided to organise a group and campaign on the streets? Or would you leave it to the next bloke?
Secondly, are these guys of the BSM really out to cause discontent amongst the fans or should we embrace both them and their ideals with open arms?
Terence Norman
If you want to know more information about BSM and there objectives, visit there website WhereHasOurArsenalGone.co.uk
Pep Guardiolla record in Barcelona : His record of 14 trophies in 4 seasons has made him the most successful coach in Barcelona’s history
@ Leo : you said pep won only 1 cl for barca and nothing else , you are legitimately RETARDED.
Next time you do post some comment make sure you have a knowledge to back it up otherwise don’t spam please.
Top Gooner!. Agree or not?:
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We need a new manger, pep guardiola, we need the opposite of chelsea change like the common thing we hear is football is all about players moving on to other teams.
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@Shahin leo probably forgot to read before copying and pasting from other sites
Opinions divided. What do you think?
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who cares if i posted from other site …
the point is if I say something before that i make sure it legitimate.
All he does is saying AW is innocent and he is the best manager ever and noone else is good and its all boards fault.
AW agreed with boards goals and strategies and he is also getting 7million a year which is totally unreasonable for a manager than didnt win us a trophy for 7 straight years and too many players sold bcs of the stupid youth strategy.
AW is as guilty as the board , I look at him as an unethical manager . If you have objection go become some clubs fan that wins no trophy and support them forever …
Opinions divided. What do you think?
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^^ yeah people are still leaving in the past,we dont even play the best football ine ngland anymore
Top Gooner!. Agree or not?:
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i think every fan of arsenal deserves mention here.yes BSM has been leading the protest but that does not mean i dont care about the club. i definitely do.And its not about us. Majority of the people around u r also concerned. every time i walk into my hospital there r people askin me what is happenin to our club. And then there r those Man u fans who literally hug me whenever RVP scores and thank me for selling him so cheap. Its so embaressing for me. But i faced them for our club. so every fan of arsenal that is supportin them inspite of this pethetic situation deserves a mention here
CHEERS TO ALL OF U. LETS STICK TOGETHER AND C OUR CLUB THROUGH THIS CRISIS
I just got the manager jacket for 110 £ and i will wear it everytime i vl go to my work place to make a point.
But it will not matter to the board for they dont ve to face this situation
FOOTBALL IS ABOUT ITS FANS NOT ABOUT PEOPLE MAKING MILLIONS OUT OF IT AND THEN COMPLAININ THAT PLAYERS BEING GREEDY WHEN THEY ASK FOR MORE PAY
LOV U ALL ARSENAL FANS
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@ leo
is it the board or arsene who has a fetish for ramsey? Why not play coquelin? his clearly light years ahead of ramsey, so why not play him? Why play gervinho when u can play ox? Why not play podolski-a proven goalscorer as CF instead of gervinho the flop? Why play the EXACT same formation EVERY GAME and make us predictable? why sell players when they ask for more money, isn’t wenger getting the highest wage for any manager in england? why not say something if ur not satisfied with the support given to u by the board? Especially when u have an army of fans willing to slaughter the board for u?
SIMPLE CAUSE U DON’T CARE, ARSENE WENGER DOES NOT CARE! GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD MATE
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@Malik Wenger wont say anything against the board,there is a RUMOUR that there is a clause in his contract that does not allow him to speak against the board,he will just enjoy the 7.5 million he gets paid each year by selling players and without winning any trophies
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i support the ideas of the BSM thanks Gunnerineverylife for reminding the fans we dont even play the best football england any more. t
Those who trust in Wenger cant even see this.
How can the perambulating Ramsey be given a new deal? You sell the best players and renew contracts for dead woods? we already have them plenty. in my place there is what we call PENNY WISE PALM FOOLISH.
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@shahin are you retarded are you suffering from dyslexia ipep guardiola won 2 uefa cl moron that is what i said defeated manure on both ocassion jeez first learn to read then comment i said the semi final match with chelsea was in 2009 following which barca defeated manure in greece in cl final the second sf was against real madrid then they defeated manure again in cl final wembley first learn to read understand & grasp you retard before commenting what a jerk
Opinions divided. What do you think?
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@shahin so you are bigger than ray parlour, nigel winterburn martin keown they work inside the club they know everything,read waht they have to say take today’s dailymail & see waht former player edu has to say about amercian owner stan this site is getting crazier by every minute by self proclaimed experts
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@shahin i have following barca for a long time don’t teach me history about barca i have seen them play under van gaal,rijkaard & pep i know who has won what all i was saying was that the his road to the 2/TWO cl finals were contoversial that is what i said either you clearly didn’t understood what i said or you started following football recently the cl semifinal in 2009 was aginst cheslki & 2011 the semi final against madrid was same they defeated manure in both the finals can’t be more clearer than this
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Leo wind ur neck in – self proclaimed experts ? Take a look at the invincibles team that wenger built – then look at this team . I gave wenger his dues there about building the team – but I cannot stress this enuff HE DID NOT GIVE US THE WINNING MENTALITY – he falls way short in that department cos of his excuses . So look at that team for a second – now the current team – and tell me who the experts are COS IT CERTAINLY AIN’T WENGER AND THE BOARD ANYWAY . Sheep follow – shepherds look after their prize assets – Wengerites and people on here that can’t open their eyes and see what’s goin on are nuffin but dumb sheep . So less of the arrogance – that’s what got us in this mess
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everything i said about pep is my views not copy paste from other sites that is waht i said saome here clearly have started watching football recently can’t help them understand it is better to ignore such so called “fans”
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@no more exuses that’s the difference 97-05 danny fiszman era 06-12 stan/nina bracewell & the rest there is a huge difference every single arsenal ex players except stewart robinson ( probably pi&&ed after leaving arsenal) has all taken on the board & not on wenger are you a bigger expert than them?
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@ leo : are you a 12 years old, dude ?
grow up mate and open your eyes , its clearly not working the way fans want Arsenal .
7 years of non-trophy and every game we lose mr.wenger give the same fu***ng excuses… like literally every game
open you eyes dude, I don’t want my club goes the path that Ajax went 15 years ago …
the so called youth strategy is not what fans want …
and ye I am not 12 years old like you are, I am a fan since 1996 when you didn’t know what soccer was .
Arsenal board and coaching team is doing a bad job , they are not implementing the business-ethics into their business which is soccer , they want revenues to pay emirates dept ASAP, I understand that, but the fact that everything should be moderated stays on .
they are not moderate people they implemented something called GREED into the club …
Arsenal fans are the indirect shareholders of the club of the club,as one of the biggest stakeholders of the club if we don’t purchase the tickets and the other stuff of arsenal they wont make money, hence they are not listening to us SO PLEASE STOP GOING TO STADIUM FOR 2 GAMES and YOU WILL SEE CHANGES I PROMISE YOU .
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Edu: I will always support Arsenal. I am always watching & I want to see them on the top because they’re a massive club & I love the fans Of course Wenger can be the man to do it. He is a fantastic manager You can’t say anything bad about Wenger when you see what he did for Arsenal since he arrived”
Opinions divided. What do you think?
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These players were playing in a different era . Stewart Robson fell short and no offence but I can hardly mind him – but I mind Ian wright and tony Adams – they have the same view – wengers views are different . Liverpool fans/players still love kenny …. How did he do lately (least he won sumfin right nuff) but at the end of the day I dnt need ex players to tell me wenger and this board TIGETHER have destroyed 1 of the most utterly brilliant teams in the WORLD EVER – and given us this sh*te . Take jack out and there ain’t 1 cud fight for a shirt back then ! Some maybe say cazorla – it Wudnt matter where u played him – he Wudnt match up to jgungberg , Dennis or pires – maybe he would for skill – but not heart , drive , cutting edge or WINNING MENTALITY . Jack is our talisman now – rosicky on his day and when not injured could grace the subs bench back then – and that’s no disrespect cos our little maestro is our 2nd best player at min .
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Interviewer: “Can you and will you buy big in January?” Wenger: “We will buy Lionel Messi in January and we will surprise you.”
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Arsenal Press Conference today:
Q: You are getting all the criticism, especially after Bradford. At what stage do you have to start looking at the players?
AW: “I believe I do my job the way I have to do it.”
Q: So, you’re happy taking all the criticism?
AW: “Happy? Maybe you go a bit overboard. It is my job so I do it. I would prefer it if everyone says I am fantastic. I cannot say we were fantastic when we lost on penalties at Bradford.”
Q: But you’re happy to take it on your broad shoulders rather than blaming the players? Why? Do you feel it inhibits their performances?
AW: “I am responsible for the results.”
Q: You fielded a good team the other night, full of experience. At what point do the players have to say: ‘hang on, we’re responsible.’ When do they have to look at themselves?
AW: “They do, don’t worry. You think they don’t care and they go home and think they had a fantastic game? They do care.”
Q: When do you see their response? Does it translate in training?
AW: “Of course. We prepare for games seriously. You have to give them credit. It was a Cup game on an English December night in Bradford. You have to give Bradford credit. Unfortunately we paid the price.
“They kicked Wigan out as well. That shows they have something that they are difficult to beat.
“We put ourselves in a more difficult situation than when we were 1-0. We got off the hook with 1-1 and we should have made the difference with 30 minutes to play.”
Q: Can you understand the concerns of the supporters generally at the moment?
AW: “Of course.”
Q: Have you see a reaction from the players since Tuesday?
AW: “I have had groups who had fantastic results who were less serious than these players, believe me. Players who were less focused than this team.”
Q: And they won trophies?
AW: “Yes.”
Q: So are those players hurting if they’re under performing?
AW: “Of course these players are hurting.”
Q: If these players are much better are you disappointed with some of the players you’ve bought over the last three or four years?
AW: “Names?”
Q: Well, you don’t want to name names do you?
AW: “You name them.”
Q: Well, Gervinho, then.
Q: Gervinho, Chamakh, Santos, Park, Squillaci?
Q: Some of those players were big buys. What’s happened to Park? It’s an extraordinary situation.
AW: “Who are the big buys?”
Q: Well, Gervinho?
AW: “How much?”
Q: £11m.
AW: “He was £8m.”
Q: Well, do you feel he is fulfilling his potential at the moment?
AW: “Gervinho?”
Q: Yes.
AW: “Gervinho is a good player, yes.”
Q: Is he at the top of his form?
AW: “I don’t want to go into individual assessments.”
Q: But generally are you disappointed with the level of signings? Generally?
AW: “Generally, what?
Q: These players are nowhere near as good, are they?
AW: “Chamakh was a big buy? He was free. Squillaci nearly free. You cannot say that we have a squad of no quality. They are international players.”
Q: I could miss from two yards, but Gervinho is not supposed to?
AW: “You can and everybody can.”
Q: What’s the difference now between this team and other teams which have won trophies?
AW: “The difference is that we have created a new team. I believe that some players have come in, some players have come back from injuries and we have to show now until the end of the season that we have the quality that I think we have.”
Q: Generally are things getting better or worse?
AW: “Look, it depends on how you judge.”
Q: Are you improving?
AW: “We finished third last year, OK?”
Q: You haven’t kicked on though?
AW: “We have not kicked on, that’s true. But we have rebuilt a team this year and we’ll see where we finish.
“At the moment, we have qualified for the Champions League (knock out stages) for 13 years on the trot out of the last 16. When I listen to you, it must be a mistake there: why is this team in this spot? It sounds like we should be in a Championship spot.
“At the moment, you have to take a little bit of distance as well before making a definite judgement on what we are capable of doing.
“No other team has done that in the Champions League. This season at the moment we are not happy with what we have produced. But we will turn it around before the end of the season.”
Q: You have the fourth highest wage bill in the Premier League, behind Manchester United, Manchester City and Chelsea. Leaving aside however much they cost, Gervinho and Chamakh are earning big money. Are the players offering value for money?
AW: “Yes. First of all, you don’t know their wages. Secondly, you accuse us of not paying the wages the players want and on the other hand you accuse of giving them the money they want.
“If you are in that situation then it’s because we are in the Champions League and we can produce the money. And secondly we are under pressure from Man City, Man United and Chelsea pay three times more the highest wages than us to pay the players these wages.
“We live in a competitive world. If they want to sign here – then they can say: ‘I can get three times more there.’”
Q: Can you and will you buy big in January?
AW: “We will buy Lionel Messi in January and we will surprise you.”
Q: With Usmanov’s money or Kroenke’s money?
AW: “What do you call big?”
Q: Would you like some of Usmanov’s money?
AW: “Look, I’ve always said the same which is that we want to produce the money from our own resources.”
Top Gooner!. Agree or not?:
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F**king AssWhipe (AW)
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Leo OMG i read the review you should post all of it so that people know Wenger is being “funny” again.
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@no more excuses i am not saying wenger is untouchable,bigger than the club,cannot be sacked or anything all i said earlier was if he has to go then the entire board must leave they are the root cause of the problem it’s not fair that he is made the scapegoat while the board continue to fool us if not wenger how many of you seriously thin tham they will instal pep guardiola as next manager they will bring antoher wenger like man who operates similarly by not spending big nothing will change without the board’s exit
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@goonar look above @vm already did yeah it was funny
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VM
Thanks for that mate.
Defending your players is one thing, being ‘off with the fairies” is something completely different.
It’s exactly because of interviews like this that I personally think Wenger has completely lost the plot.
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My point Leo – is that alot of people totally absolve wenger of any blame . Hardly right when he’s gettin 7m a year for doin sumfin . They do think he’s arsenal – he is not – we were here b4 and will be long after him . Any strong manager Wudnt have stood by and watched this happen to a club he loved – let alone give the spineless kronke and co sum1 to hide behind . I give wenger credit for all he’s done – its a pity others can’t open their eyes and realise just how much damage he’s done too . And yes the board should all go too !
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for us not residing in the Uk, what can we do to help?
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It’s interviews like that that make me think Wenger has totally lost the plot!
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DK
For those living outside the UK, as I see it you have 3 options.
1. Let others do it for you.
2. Join the Arsenal supporters trust ie if you think they best represent your views.
3. join the BSM ie if you think they best represent your views.
But let’s be honest, neither group is likely to get rid of Kroenke. But the more members a group has the more chance it has of getting the ‘change in policy’ you want. This is why governments listen to the largest trade unions.
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Arsenal will always be Arsenal…YOU CANT BUY CLASS…Arsenal build class…
Arsenal will be here to stay for 500 years 1000 years onwards….
unlike Chelsea and City…their fans are praying hard that Roman and the Sheiks dont withdraw from the club….
the moment they do Chelsea and City will probably ceased to exist….
Theres only one Arsenal…talents come and go…
Arsenal developed and survive on its own…….
Like it and support it…
Unhappy with it JUST LEAVE….
Arsenal will be here forever..
Opinions divided. What do you think?
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^^ deluded
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i heard jack wilshere is a member lol
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@Tamil Sundram Who the f**k are you to tell that unhappy gooners should just leave. They are unhappy because they care for Arsenal unlike you. Those fans won’t be unhappy if Arsenal spend what they earns. Profit from Arsenal is going to Kroenke’s pockets. Where else is the profit spend each year? This is not balancing your accounts. This is looting Arsenal.
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@ Tamil Sundram who the shit are you!! We think you are not gooners then just F^^k Off!!. Talking about Arsenal in Metaphorically while we are in crisis. A Loser mentality has consumed your instinct of competitiveness. Just get loss!!!!
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Gun – well said – it might be an option for Tamil etc to just change his club – but it ain’t for us ! We will fight for OUR team – not just accept bein bent over and done up the donut !
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What the hell happened, it seemed like a reasonable debate last night!
@Gunnerineverylife
Mate your a doughnut! What nonsense are you talking about Wenger has a clause in his contract that he can’t bad mouth the board?
He cant bad mouth the board because they are his employers, I tell you what go to work monday morning and bad mouth YOUR boss and see how far you go.
@No more excuses
No other manager could have done what Wenger has done for us these last 7 years, by all intents we should have struggled four or five years back.
An interesting experiment will be Spurs, when they start moving to their 60,000 seat stadium I honestly believe they will finish bottom half of the table.
@Terry
What part of that seems like he has lost the plot? Everything he said seemed reasonable.
@Malik
What the hell do you mean what is wrong with moving to Wembley? Because of that one statement I think you’re a joke, a FIFA 13 fan boy.
No loyalty to this club and its history.
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@GUN
Whilst I agree with you that nobody should tell anyone to f@k off.
However at no point has Kroenke lined his own pockets with Arsenals money, please stick to facts when arguing
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Dr pepper – what are u on ? Can u get me some ? We cudnt find a manager that did what exactly the past 7yrs ? Is it line stans pockets by gettin us a top 4 place ? Is it letting his team be stripped ? ISIT signing deadwood ? ISIT playing top players outa position ? Is it his great excuses ? His cr*p tactics , his taking 7m a year for apparently having no control over anyfin cos its all the board , is it the no trophies , or ISIT he took the club from the great invincibles to Bradford whipping boys in 8yrs – cos that’s impressive – even Roy keane cudnt do that !!! I could go on and on but it wud make no difference cos people like u have ur head in the sand and fingers crossed !
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By the way – who really is responsible for the top 4 finishes ? Last year spurs bottled it – we tried to throw it away for the last 2mths but they just managed to be worse . Think about it – should arsenal be in top 4 ? Course they should . U’ve city , utd , Chelsea runnin away with things , Liverpool are a shadow of what they were , Newcastle were relegated a few yrs back ….. So who really are we competing against for the top4 …. I’ll tell u – mid table teams – yeah – thanks for that wenger . I just deal with facts – not some romantic idea that our manager is god .
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Dr. Pepper
Regarding the comment by Gunnerineverylife, I think the point he was trying to make is that Ar$ene probably has a “confidentiality clause” in his contract. Have you never seen such a thing before because I have personally.
As for Kroenke lining his pockets, he is sitting on a huge unrealized profit when he does eventually sell his shares – something which I feel he will do when he’s had his fill. In the meantime, I am inclined to believe that he takes a salary like most business owners would.
And what about the huge bonuses which Gazidi$ (and I am sure the rest of the board + Ar$ene) have been receiving most likelý for good financial results because it SURE AS HELL ain’t for sporting successes!? Or the huge salaries of GazidI$ and Ar$ene? And they go on about FFP and financial prudence. Hypocrites the lot of them.
Lastly, I have to remind you that none of those corrupt people are paying back the debt on the stadium from their pockets. It is the hard working fans who in more ways than one responsible for that! Fans who pay the highest ticket prices, merchandise, memberships etc. Match day revenue is the biggest source of income at the club, mind you.
So yes, the fans have EVERY RIGHT to demand change.
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DrPepper…totally agree with your views.
What I cannot understtand is why these anti Wenger people arent into the art of football management…it seems they know all the answers.
If they dont they then invent facts to back up their thoughts.
Once again, 0.4% of a 55,000 crowd felt they wanted to protest, that should tell these protest groups something, but no they continue to ignore facts and would rather indulge in fiction
DrPepper PLEASE keep up the good work, wonder why you havent been asked to write a blog? Think we know the answer to that as well mate!!
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Oh Ken, you are still around? Why didn’t you accept Terry Norman’s £100 wager mate? Clock is ticking for you.
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Ken – what a stupid statement . Funny I never seen the job vacant in the paper . I used to have debates with u when I was under a diff name . Straight up . So this board are financial genius then ? Did u do the calculations to see how much money is wasted in players paid top money for nuffin ? Do u not agree if u’ve a 1st team worth 250m and u sell them down til theyr a 150m pound team – that u have in fact sold assets ? Just cos the money’s in the bank doesn’t mean u made it – any moron cud do that ! The sales from highbury etc etc etc . The cheap wages , the increased tickets , the sponsorship deals etc – this is what bought the emirates – not wenger or the gazidas genius – it’s not rocket science ! The skill is to keep the team at same level while doin it . Has it been a success in ur eyes ?
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Ken , dr pepper – if u paid that kinda money to take ur kids to the emirates do u really think u wanna be protesting ? Dnt fink that it’s only 0.04 (or wotever) it is percent of the emirates are behind wenger or the board – there are plenty of reasons why people didn’t do that and it’s naive to believe that .
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Meant against wenger + board .
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@DrPepper We all know who the doughnut is,dont we?
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@No more excuses
A family of four can go to some Arsenal league games for £100 or £40 in some league cup games.
Tell me how is that bad! That is work done by the board!
Wenger has kept us a top 4 team despite always losing our best players then constantly having to replace them – and this was out of his hands as the players themselves were REFUSING to sign contracts.
We finished above chelsea last year as well – that isn’t romanticising anything.
Would it be romanticising to say Wenger had us finish above a team who have FAR FAR FAR (it is so much I had to capitalise three times) outstripped us with spending – in what way is that doing a bad job?
@Gunnerineverylife
You’re still yet to throw out a coherent point, I’m still chuckling at your clause that he doesn’t speak bad of the board (even with G-Force helping you out with a coherent explanation) – like the Arsenal board is a massive conspiracy
@G-Force
But there is 0 precedence for Kroenke up and leaving from his teams. He has always been a long term owner.
I would honestly prefer it if those who want Kroenke out came out and said
‘I want Kroenke out because he wont invest his own money in to the club for transfers’
that would be a valid point, instead of making claims that he is lining his pockets. When there is literally no proof of any such claims.
Also Gazidis isn’t on a HUGE salary – his salary is inline with other CEOs as was his bonus – which if you compare to the size of the deals he brought in (whether you want to accept he done well or not) seems reasonably fair.
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Dr pepper – ur totally missin the point and reckon u know it . Why do they not want to stay and sign ? The clubs happy to sell em too – so dnt give me that cr*p . If they were ambitious they’d say – right ok – go . Then they’d take the big money for the player AND FEKIN RE-INVEST IT . Top 4 is not a trophy . P.s I live in n.ireland and when we go to the emirates it costs alot more believe me ! U can’t just blame the players – if a player wanted to stay in a team that only wanted to make money then they Wudnt be winners . A great player wants to look at trophies when he finishes his career . Was that goal number 15 for rvp this season …. Glad to see the Wengerites were right when they said we Wudnt miss him …. Just like we never missed any1 else . Donuts . We may just agree to disagree – u fink rsenal were non existent b4 wenger – I know better . No1 even wanted wenger at the start remember …. Or maybe u dnt ?
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DrPepper
When AW says
AW, I had group whose had fantastic results who were less serious than these players. Players who were less focused than this team.
Q. And they won trophies
AW. yes
Please tell me an Arsenal team, who won trophies under AW, who were less focused than this current lot. As the saying goes. Name that team!
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@No more excuses
Whilst I understand your plight coming over from N. Ireland (well I probably don’t I travel from london, I probably mean I appreciate the effort you’re making) you can hardly blame your extra travel costs on Arsenal.
If we spent 100m on players this season and won the league, City and Chelsea would spend 200m next season whilst we couldn’t then spend another 100m to keep up. So realistic reinvestment for Arsenal is at the current level 40-50 maybe at a stretch reaching to 70m.
We offered RVP 115,00/week and a 5mil signing on fee, seriously! That is the biggest contract we have ever offered anyone – that shows how far we was willing to go to keep him.
Nasri, Adebayor, Cilchy, Toure (to be fair not so much), Song (although rumour has it he went for a different reason) and Cole all left purely because of money.
Cesc left to play for the team he supported as a kid.
It was irrelevent to us winning anything, we offer them 50k – 100k/week less than they could get elsewhere. If theo goes it will be the same, he left only because of money.
Of those players, probably only Cesc, Cole and now RVP has done anything of merit elsewhere. They may have won trophies but are they the best players in their teams? do they even have a place in the starting line up?
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Tony Adams and Ray Parlor spring to mind, as does half of the 1998 team!!
Don’t let the fact that they were players cloud your judgement, they probably wasn’t as focused.
The current crop of players, probably definitely more professional then before – if I had to wager, that’s what I think Wenger meant.
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@ Dr Pepper
Based on your comments I have read you are very supportive of the AST, which is definitely fair enough. And yet at the AGM this year, some members accused the directors of putting profit on the balance sheet before success and “ruining” the club. They also questioned the salary of Gazidi$ and his bonuses! So they obviously do not think that it is “reasonably fair” as you claim. But to each his own.
As for $tan, like I mentioned – I am inclined to believe that he takes a salary like most business owners, hence his pockets are LITERALLY lined in all sense of the phrase. If he were to sell off his shares right now, he will stand to gain millions. There is also no proof that he won’t in the future. Lady Nina sold her 15.9% shareholding and David Dein also sold his. Anything can happen if “the price is right”.
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Dr pepper – forgot to say -Yeah we outplaced Chelsea last year . Wengers great – Ooooh hold on – did they not win 2trophies last year inc the champs league ….. And did they not have a major revolt most of the season ? U see what u wanna see – I look at the whole picture . The facts speak for themselves . We were great and won trophies near a decade ago …. Now we ain’t good , win nuffin and get outplayed and outfought by a team in 4th tier . If wenger is totally blameless and isn’t init just for the money – then why did this happen . If the Everton board done that to ANY real manager then they’d tell the board to wise up – def not stand back and defend it all !
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DrPepper
You can name players like Adams etc and I really couldn’t care what their private lives were like, when they went onto that pitch they were totally PROFESSIONAL. If we had a Tony Adams character in our team today, we wouldn’t be in the mess we are.
And you might say AW meant to say professional, but that’s not what he said, is it? Do we now have to Interpret what we think he’s trying to say rather than take at face value what he is actually saying? If that’s the case no wonder the team look like a headless chicken and not much a a ‘le prof’ is he?
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DrPepper
I’ve just reRead some of G-Force’s comments and he is right. You may say Kroenke ‘”isn’t lining his pockets”, then what is he doing?
I will claim and can prove that he has “accumulated serious wealth” whilst owning Arsenal shares.
Just so Ken on here can see it in “Black and White” tell me I’m wrong.
If Kroenke could sell his shares today @ £17,000 a share he would make nearly £300 million!
if he sold at @£14,000, which is the price Usmanov would be interested, he would profit nearly £160 million.
And I’ll carry on.
As AFC continue to pay down the debt on the stadium, the accumulated wealth of Kroenke will increase.
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@Terry
I’m not going to have this debate again on a new page. He has not sold his shares, therefore he has made no money.
He may sell his shares, therefore make a huge profit – this will be the first time he has done that with any sports team he has owned.
His accumulated PAPER worth will increase.
Please get off this nonsense of him profiteering from Arsenal.
Just make the claim you don’t like him because you feel as a majority owner he should be investing his own money directly to the team, not running the club via a sustainability model. This would be a valid argument.
This nonsense of making money is IRRELEVANT until post act – and he has no prior history of it.
You are allowing there on pitch ability cloud your judgement, off the field they were not professional. Arsene’s point being that his current crop of players aren’t performing too well but you cannot fault their focus.
@G-Force
Yes kroenke pays himself a salary – would you like the figures? 2009 – 17k 2010 – 25k 2011 – 25k.
I imagine those figures are for tax purposes only, similar to the way some directors pay themselves a salary of $1/year.
PHW pays himself consistently 75k/year.
These figures hardly break the bank do they?
All of this information is available in the annual reports on the Arsenal website.
@No excuse
Would you rather the Arsenal board operated like Roman does at Chelsea?
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DrPepper
I was just supporting G Forces claim and he was right. Look at it like this, when Kroenke is quoted as being worth 3.2 Billion that’s NOT cash in the bank, that’s the book value of his assets eg arsenal shares plus cash. OK, let’s agree enough on that cos all we’re arguing about is “book value”, “marking to market” etc
Now here’s were we might agree
There is NO WAY Kroenke is going to cash in. Neither NOW or for the FORSEEABLE future.
All protest groups like the BSM can hope to achieve is a ‘change in policy’ from the board ie Kroenke.
In my opinion, the board will look to placate the BSM by offering minor concessions.
The ONLY way to get rid of Kroenke, and it won’t happen at least until the stadium is paid off, is to STOP purchasing merchandise and going to games I.e. hit him in the pocket.
But you, me and the vast majority of people on here are never going to do that. For example, my good friend who was on the last BSM protest and has missed only 5 home games in 20 years, there is absolutely NO WAY he will boycott any arsenal game or merchandise. Both mean to much to him. That is why Kroenke will get away with underinvestment in our team for the FORSEEABLE future, he relies on the religion that is called football.
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Dr pepper – it’s money in the bank – which can be cashed in on or used as callaterol to negotiate other big buys – so to say he isn’t makin money is crazy cos he is – its just money in bank . I think abromovich has his problems yes – but he kicks every ball when he’s at matches (and most matches it is) unlike slimy stan , and the reasons for his impatience is he wants to be successful . Do u know what – he deserved to win the champs league cos of the effort (weather right or wrong) he put into it . R Chelsea ever gonna be weaker cos of him ? No ! Thers a difference between us wantin a sugar daddy right nuff – but havin an owner like kronke – who doesn’t understand football or even care for arsenal fc – is surely a worse scenario . Would I rather have roman than stan ….. Is it a trick question ???? Yeah I would ….. Go on …. Let me have it lol
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@ Dr Pepper
Thanks but I don’t need the figures. I have looked at the annual reports before and I know how to find them myself on the Arsenal website since Arsenal is obligated to publish them.
Yes maybe some directors pay themselves $1 dollar per year – you talking about Mark Zuckerberg hehehe? I bet you none of the Directors at Arsenal pays themselves $1 dollar per year.
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I’m confused… You all want David dein back in the club yet you complain about kronke???
Dein is the reason kronke is on the boards.
Some say ten years ago arsenal were winning trophies…yes, because wenger turned us into perineal winners.
Why don’t you go back 20-30 years…then you would see wenger is still doing better than anyone who came before him.
Our best players left for money. Simple as that. You people should try running a business with your mentality. I bet none of you here are successful business owners.
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@jeff
Making money using others people’s money is definitely a lot easier than always using your own.
Kroneke invested his money simply into arsenal shares, he hasn’t invested a single cent in the development of Arsenal, not that I can find anyway.
Running your own busniess is immaterial to a debate about arsenal, but I along with many others on here I’m sure have.
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Jeff – ur not too bright makin statements bout people u dnt know . We are on about the past 8yrs here in case u haven’t noticed – so does that mean no other arsenal manager has won more than wenger has in the past 8yrs (since our decline) in case u cudnt figure it out . Muppet
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@Jeff makes valid points
If we take our last 30 years worth of managers and just base Wenger on his last 8 years he would be our second best manager behind GG.
Now if you factor what he done in his first 7 years he is by far our greatest – which everyone agrees, right?
@Terry
Yes I agree groups like AST and BSM can only hope to make incremental changes, they will never have the power to make major changes due to ruling with the heart right? Does everyone agree, we would never stop going Premier league, league one, league two or conference?
Keeping on topic of BSM I would rather they came out and said they would prefer Kroenke to invest out of his own pocket more – which is what they want right?
Which is also my problem with them in regards to that aspect (don’t forget I have admitted to agreeing to some of their statements).
They pander to the popular vote, in that respect they are like the BNP. They play on the biggest fear and exploit it amongst those that don’t understand.
They may deep down have the right idea, but they are doing it underhandedly. That is where the BNP analogy ends, I am not endorsing them!
Like we have both agreed Kroenke has no precedent for pulling out, therefore why kick up a fuss that he is making money – paper money – why not just say invest more.
Why does the semi-deception of him financially raping the club need to be there?
@G-Force
I was referring to Bill gates, I remember reading he always paid himself $1/year.
No they didn’t pay $1, they paid themselves less than 25k though. And that is such an insignificant sum to them I bet there is a reason for it, possibly higher taxes if they didn’t take it? – on the club I mean not their own tax valuations.
@No excuses
You are wrong in your first statement on loans but as me and @terry have done this argument before I cannot bear to do it again.
What would happen if Roman died tonight?
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WOW, in all my 30 years of support for this great club, have i ever seen us all so divided. Board, Manager , players and fans. Where are my brothers in arms ? where are my gooners ?
Where is The Arsenal…….
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@ Dr Pepper
I do hope and actually believe that you are not that naive to think that PHW and some other board members who take home 25k or less are doing Arsenal a favor. Although they may seem to be taking home an “insignificant sum” – in place of salaries, there are bonuses and various forms of compensation, which earns them much more than their salary. Some companies in fact issue stock options instead of high salaries – tax purposes naturally.
Hence as you can imagine, their incentive would be to ensure the club is making profits as their compensation is tied to the financial performance of the company.
Logically speaking and let’s be honest here, have you heard of a top director earning 25k or less a year? Who would want that? Look at Steve Jobs as well – earning $1 a year as CEO but held apple shares worth $2.1 billion.
Nothing is free in this world, not even the services of board members.
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Has anyone been watching Benteke claaaas one for the future or Demba Ba has 7.5 mil release. Could buy them along with Diame and perhaps a few other young players on the end of their contract. Young enough to sell again that is. ## Signed on behalf of the ARSENAL BOARD.##
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Wenger has no choice highbury earning 46m no prob. Emirates 400m borrowed at about 6% 24m interest 12m off capital 10m a year to spend move into Emirates 92M earnings 46m extra but Kronke buys borrowing 400m 24m interest 18m off capital leaving Wenger 10m a year
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Ps TH 14 on todays market cost 29M about 12/14m Wenger paid but now Wenger buys 6,8,11M which is 2.75 2.33 4.3 so he is buying players a 3rd of the quality Gervino 4 Nasri Ramsey 4 Fab whats his name 4 RVP
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