Piers Morgan was the first ‘non-sporting guest’ on Simon Jordan’s Up-Front Podcast this week.
Normally I would offer you a top 10 list on what we learnt from our celebrity Gooner, but I’m not sure how interested readers are about who Mr Morgan will be voting for in the election or his highs and lows in journalism.
I will discuss his current views on Arsenal, him feeling that history has proved previous comments regarding Mr Wenger have been proven correct ….
I’m a big fan of Mr Morgan but on this occasion, he’s contradicted himself. Because history in fact shows the opposite.
The Frenchman remains the last man to lift the title in North London, since he left, we have already twice finished lower than he ever did and have finished outside the top 4 more times than he did in his entire 22 years in charge.
Go back to 2018 when the man was being mocked for ‘only’ finishing 4th and winning the odd FA Cup and telling yourself that 6 years later only 2 top 4 finishes would now be celebrated.
There is a reason why I said we would never win the Prem under Stan Kroenke’s regime, because I predicted that only when Mr Wenger left would we realise how hard it was to work for our owner and still qualify for the Champions League.
The two years in a row we have failed to get over the line should make us appreciate Mr Wenger more. It should make fans empathise with how difficult it is and make your marvel at the 74-year-olds body of work even more.
Defending accusations from the host that his point of view is ‘preposterous‘, this was Mr Morgan’s response: “First eight years, he was the best manager in world football. He won the league three times against Alex Ferguson, who many view as the greatest of all time… and we went Invincible. Best in the world in my estimation. For the last 14 years of his tenure, sadly, he was a shadow of the manager he’d been before, and that’s why we didn’t win the league.
“He became what I call a glorified architect. He was more obsessed with having a great stadium. I love Arsene Wenger for what he did for Arsenal, but he stayed at least 12, maybe 14, years too long.”
It’s wrong that the 59-year-old would attempt to rewrite history for fans not old enough to remember. It’s been two decades since we were last Champions. The longer that time increases, the more we should appreciate the Invincibles, not rewrite history to suit our own argument.
We didn’t stop winning the Prem in 2004 because our manager chose to build a new stadium. That was a choice made by his employers who made a business decision.
With an economics degree our boss may have agreed, but he also trusted those in power to follow FFP rules, believing long term the Gunners would be rewarded for being a self-sustained model.
He didn’t ask for Adebayor, Toure, Sagna, Nasri, Clichy and Van Persie all to move in their prime to Manchester. Same as he didn’t want Fabregas to return to Spain.
He wasn’t asking for a fraction of that money to be spent on replacement so it could be saved for the stadium.
He’s smart enough to know that in that era, Arsenal could no longer be considered title contenders. His job criteria was to make a profit to pay back loans while finding a way to maintain revenue from UEFA.
Mr Morgan is intelligent enough to know that this business model was not Mr Wenger’s choice. The suggestion he was happy to lose his best talent became he was obsessed with what he was building is fantasy.
Yes, a state-of-the-art training ground and stadium is part of his legacy because it safeguards the club’s future, but he’s said countless times ‘the Emirates…my greatest suffering’.
Not that what was designed shouldn’t be factored into the man’s legacy.
A lot is made of what Arteta inherited. Yet he’s not unique in starting a new job where things are not perfect. If nothing needed fixing there wouldn’t be a vacancy in the first place.
Mr Wenger had to deal with a drinking culture when he arrived in England, poor standards, a small stadium and the club not having access to their own training ground, so these things matter.
It seems harsh to judge a man on not winning the Prem when that was no longer realistic.
You can’t demand the most delicious cake if the chef hasn’t got the ingredients to work with.
That would be like judging Arteta for being a twice runners up when you know he has a young team. Imagine if the Spaniard then had to offload his most prized assets every summer?
Mr Wenger has said countless times that if he had known his work would purely be judged on how many trophies he won, he could have left a lot sooner to go where medals were more likely.
He believed that judgement wouldn’t come from within the fanbase because he naively assumed all supporters would afford him the same level of loyalty that he had given them.
Based purely on medals, Mr Wenger says he has proof that he could have gone to a Bayern Munich or PSG, offers made when Arsenal were at their lowest ebb. With Banks dictating repayment plans on if our gaffer would extend his deal, Mr Wenger felt overseeing the transition was the right thing to do, but also a greater challenge. On that day he essentially turned his back on ever being a Champion again.
He admits regretting that choice, moving to Paris or Germany would have been less stressful, but at time he trusted the fans like Morgan to not make up facts to make a good story.
The host and guest of this YouTube programme struggles to see the irony of how they judge the current generation, saying too many celebrate failure. They both laugh at the idea of being proud to pass your driving test on the 8th attempt.
Both’s parenting style is not to put an arm round the shoulders of their child if they lose.
Yet Mr Morgan feels two top 4 finishes 6 years has proven something?
Dan
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It’s really sad like really sad that an arsenal fan will still criticised this man despite the fact that he was the one, in fact, that sacrifice his career out of loyalty to the club. That’s why I felt ashamed of ourselves (fans) that joined together to claim that he’s not good enough for us anymore.
I, sometimes, try to picture how the event would have been if he had decided to jump ship the moment we want to start the Emirates project. Am sure he would have secured a job at another big club and win many trophies. While we’ll probably struggle to get an average managerthat would be willing to work with a restricted budget, obligation to make profit by loosing key players and despite this must also provide top 4 assurance. Then thinking of how the players will handle his departure knowing how influential he was. Thinking of all these point at how deep we would have dropped as am not sure we’ll be near top 4. He probably also foresight these and out of loyalty decided to stick with us though out the tough period and the least he would be expecting from the fans is that they would understand the situation we are as a club. But No, some of us still believe we should be winning the league and champions league while we’re loosing our best players, working with little budget and our competitors (chelski and Manchester City) ) are flexing financial muscle. That’s why we couldn’t understand his famous statement that top 4 is just as important as a trophy.
Speaking for myself, I didn’t experience the invincible season which coincide with our last league triumph (too young for football then) all i have his history and old clips of our dominance era but despite this, I still respect the man due to my understanding of what he’s working with and i wonder why others that have been supporting the club long before me couldn’t understand.
To me he is our greatest manager not even arteta , even he win the champion league, can measure up to him because no manager can deal with what he has to deal with just to remain with us not if they have better option that he had.
What I will advise the fans his let us be realistic and considerate with our expectations and understand there’s more to a club other than trophy. There is pride, honor, history, culture to mention but a few. Merci arsene
…
Fantastic reply Chronicle!
Many willfully ignore as you have very well put it, that he sacrificed personal glory for Arsenal stability.
Why did he refuse the jobs at Madrid and Munich seasons after seasons where he would have won a lot of Champions League trophies?
Perhaps he knew only he could make Arsenal competitive with all the restrictions at that time. Perhaps he knew anyone but he in charge at that difficulty times would have sunk the club to the lows where recovery is near impossible.
What a great man!!!
This is a disgrace from Morgan and this is where when Morgan ever interviews arteta he should call him out on that.
Glorified architect? The stadium went 300 m over budget – that wasn’t wenger’s fault was it. The fact he had to get rid of the invincibles and then develop and quickly sell the likes of fabregas, adebayor etc . Gazidis came in and made wengwr the fall guy.
Yet all those years we finished 4th showed how far ahead he was of the likes of Liverpool and spurs. United, Chelsea and then City have huge pockets so they moved way far ahead of us.
I am always greatful for what wenger did for us … but when I hear comments like Morgans and other clowns I realise that our fan base even when they saw our summer business still believed we should sign big players when we had no money that perhaps wenger should have walked away when he was told the plans for the foreseeable future and then Stan kroenke and his zero interest in the club.
Do these people who criticise wenger , ever think if wenger walked away in 05 what state the club would be in..
It may sound extreme but it would be below mid table , perhaps similarly situations as Leeds Portsmouth as the stadium had to be paid off.
The man give his best years as a manager to the club, yet out own fans don’t appreciate that.
It’s about time every time Morgan tweets even if positive about arsenal we all start to tell him to support someone else
The Emirates was delivered on time and ON BUDGET at a total cost of £390 million.
Correct Jax.
According to A above, then the Emirates was a cheap affair for a £50m budget
However, I’m not going to dismiss the huge impact AW had on the healthy position we are in now. He was committed to the cause. I do though think that he should- on his own volition- called it a day a little earlier
As for Morgan, he blows hot and cold depending on which side he got out of the bed
Plus, I omitted to mention, my best Arsenal memories feature his teams and the beautiful football he gave us
Fully agree Ken, the word legend and legendary is used too loosely these days but clearly apply to Arsenal Wenger. His team(s) of the late 90’s and early 2000’s were truly magnificent, my proudest moments as a supporter. At my age I doubt I will ever see their like again and the game has become more technical, almost chess like. Then it was more gladiatorial, remember some of the Man U games?
As for Piers Morgan, whenever I see his face an expletive comes to mind.
Arsene not Arsenal – bloody AI!!
The sad thing is that we’ll have fans agreeing with this idiot, who just cannot keep his mouth closed and thinks he knows it all.
Arsene Wenger is the reason we are the club we are today – make no mistake about that
I’ve just read your post and I’m in total agreement Ken1945
Piers Morgan is a self publicist and not much more tbh
Can’t stand the man SueP.
Sue, I’m so amazed that Dan would risk credibility by admitting on a public forum that he actually likes Morgan. What next, a secret love for Joey Barton?
Ugh! Jax
Excellent article Dan! /
Arsene Wenger story with Arsenal Fc are the through definition of THINGS WE DO FOR LOVE.
The world football at larger knows that what Wenger did back then are the reason we are demanding Arteta to win a trophy now . The team is in a better financial ground to buy players in 100m range and spend 200m inna transfer because they have more income coming from the Stadium, which was a poisonous cup that Wenger had to drink for over 14years .
To a true deep thinking personal you will know that your building is as worthy as testing the hand of time base on your foundation.
ARSENE WENGER GAVE US THAT
It’s the sponsorships, and the money from the PL that allowed us to spend £105m on a player, not the stadium.
The Emirates allowed us to move from a 38,000 stadium to a 60,000 state of the art home ground HD.
With that came the sponsorship deals, as the name The Emirates has been seen as a must have since it opened up.
Plus the CL money of course, which, over those years amounted to a tidy little sum wouldn’t you say?
£4m per year for the stadium naming rights is what we get under the last agreement with Emirates Ken. Not a lot really in this day and age. Hopefully when the deal ends in 2028 we can secure a bigger one.
Great to see younger supporters like Chronicle, who understand what Arsene built at the club and how The Arsenal became known worldwide because of him.
I get a real sense of pride knowing that it was Arsene who recommended Mikel for the position – teacher and student who both appreciates the other to this day.
Dear old Fergie wanted Moyes and therein lies another story!!
“Just through his behaviour, his focus on getting everything right in the team, he has a huge influence. He has great experience and is respected throughout the squad.
“I really hope Mikel considers going into coaching. When you manage, you want to see your players continue and see them give their experience and knowledge back.
“You want them to give their expertise of the way we want to play football and the way we want to behave. It would be great if someone like Mikel went into management, so somewhere the spirit of our game can survive through the players who have played for us.
“But at the moment I must say Mikel is still here as a football player. The first thing in life, when you sign the contract you have to give absolutely everything to the job you have signed for and I think he does that very well.
“He has the quality to be a manager in the future I’m sure, but at the moment he gives his focus on the job as a player and gives absolutely everything.”
Wenger on Arteta in 2015. An extract from official club website.
HH, well done and researched.
As I say, he went one step further and suggested Mikel to take over from him.
I hope that over time, every supporter will realize just what Arsene did for the club and, of course, how the club propelled him to be one of the greatest managers ever.
OT Rest in peace José Reyes – one of our Invincibles who died today.
Ken, it’s the anniversary of his tragic death.
What a player he was HD – there’s an article on YouTube, showing all of his goals.
I’ll never forgive / forget the Neville brothers trying to kick him out of Old Trafford.
Yet another game where the referee was so biased towards manure and Fergie!!
He was a terrific player Ken, lovely left foot. I was quite disappointed when he left. As you said, those Neville brothers, what a pair of James Hunts.
🤔 Rhyming slang HD ?😊
Yes SueP. I would’ve used the original Cockney Rhyming slang, but I’m not sure people would understand it.
Berk(ley)?
Yes Jax 👍
Jax,
Round these ‘ere parts, its the Fernie
Ken, another of our ex players is dangerous ill tonight. Kevin Campbell has had kidney failure and his family have been called to the hospital apparently.
I’ve just seen that HD.
Let’s hope he pulls through.
🤞 Ken.
Blimey! I had no idea. He’s often on the radio and such a cheerful soul 🤞
It’s interesting that AW saw something in his captain that would take him further In advancing his career when his playing days were over.
I actually felt for Moyes. He got pelters for bringing Fellaini with him but he was at Utd long after Moyes got the boot
I almost stopped at: ‘I’m a big fan of Mr Morgan’, but saw it through.
At least The Athletic thinks we’re ‘Elite’, and published the numbers to prove it.
“He didn’t ask for Adebayor, Toure, Sagna, Nasri, Clichy and Van Persie all to move in their prime to Manchester. Same as he didn’t want Fabregas to return to Spain.”
He was responsible for the environment which caused them to want to leave – is it fair to ask top players to play their prime years at a club where it’s clear the ambition is just to qualify for Europe? The ones who stayed were happy with that situation, happy enough with not winning, so naturally things went downhill.
I think Wenger did well to slow the decline, always brought in talented players, but he was also seemingly happy to have the excuse of the stadium when asked why we couldn’t win anymore.
No-one denies what Wenger did in the beginning and for that he’s our greatest ever manager, but the excuse-making for the latter years was and is extremely frustrating. As I said, he always bought *talented* players, but in those years he didn’t always buy *hungry* players (like most of those mentioned, who left) – to my mind, that’s where he fell down, and that wasn’t purely down to money.
So you see the building of a brand new stadium and then having to pay for it as an “excuse” Davi?
When the banks demanded that he stayed as part of the deal to loan the club money, was it because he had created an environment that wanted players to leave?
Until his last two years, we had CL football, despite what you see as an environment that caused mass exodus – yet year after year, he finished in the top four, thus he qualified for the top European competition and won three fa cups in the same time it’s taken MA to win one.
If players were happy to stay, it was because they knew they were playing for one of the greatest managers ever and in one of the greatest clubs ever.
As for going downhill, his last five seasons saw a 4th 3rd 2nd 5th(fa cup win) and 6th :
He should have left after that fa cup win, but the club asked him to stay
Why do you think that was?
Well, when at the start of the season or at times during the season we say we’re going to challenge for the title, and then don’t, yes, the stadium becomes an excuse. Wenger did indicate that in most seasons, just from a quick search.
Look at the points totals rather than the positions. We rarely got within 10 points of the title since around 2008? That’s surely a better measure.
I didn’t say the environment caused a mass exodus, I said the environment caused the players with real ambition to want to leave. The players who stayed were happy with that environment and level – otherwise they’d have left, because who wants to spend their prime years just qualifying for Europe when they could have been winning somewhere else?
I think the club will have asked him to stay, yes, because he got us into the ecl, but also because he was willing to just do that and not get upset about not having as much money to spend as Chelsea or city.
What about players like Adebayor or Alexander Song who have been on record saying they didn’t want to leave but were sold against their will because the club needed the money?
I didn’t say we didn’t need money, but the players we brought in to replace them weren’t all winners. They could have found better, up-and-coming player replacements to stay competitive. That would have been an achievement with celebrating. Even if we still hadn’t won titles, at least we could have been more competitive. I probably give the impression I think it’s all about winning here, but I only think we should always be *trying* to win, whatever the outside challenges we face.
Davi, don’t you think AW and his players were trying to win every game then?
I believe MA’s team were trying to win every game last season and this, but it doesn’t always, if ever, happen.
Of course on a game to game basis, but we weren’t putting in serious title challenges. Our players weren’t capable of it, mentally.
We did exactly what you are suggesting. Lets look for example at our 2010 lineup. Sczeney, Clichy, Djorou, Song, Wilshere from Academy. Walcott, RVP, Arshavin, Cesc, Koscilieny, Sagna combined cost probably cost 50 million.
And yet we were competitive. More competitive than the current squad assembled for 800m. We qualified every season in CL, we advanced far in cups. The only thing similar between the current 800m squad and those assembled by peanuts is being trophyless.
One will cite Man city dominance but at that time we had two. Mourinhos Chelsea and the great Alex Man utd, with cheating referees to boot.
Not exactly – we developed youth players and were able to field a lot of talent, but many/most weren’t at the level in terms of hunger/mentality to put up a serious challenge. Walcott’s a great example of that – he was unplayable for stretches and then basically anonymous for long periods. I’m just saying it was absolutely possible to have done a lot better over those years.
Adebayor was an ungrateful rat. His should not be mentioned in an Arsenal conversation.
HH, this is a quote by Song about his transfer.
“When Barcelona offered me a contract and I saw how much I would earn, I didn’t think twice. I felt my wife and children should have comfortable lives once my career is over. I met Barca’s sporting director, and he told me I would not get to play many games. But I didn’t give a f**K – I knew that now I would become a millionaire. I’ll always say that a 20-year-old that drives a Ferrari is a poor man, as at that age he’s not achieved anything. But a man of 50 who drives a Bentley is a man to be respected”.
As for Adebayor, he had been disruptive at the club, culminating in him being left out of the match day squad for the last game of his last season with us. As the players went on their ‘lap of appreciation’, he went into the changing room and stole some of the clubs pre-match clothing and the match day boots of RVP. RVP had promised those boots to a disabled kid.
Doesn’t really sound like two players that didn’t want to leave.
I do not see contribution from the usual suspects who always claim to have huge respect for Wenger contrary to their regular digs.
I think they must be wholeheartedly in agreement with Mr moral quandary.
That may well be because of the absolute contempt they have for Morgan, aka Bertie Smalls.
Simon Jordan is a massive knob from his time on talk shite along with the rest of them clowns .
The fact that anyone would listen to his podcast and take him or his guests seriously ,including Morgan IMO needs their heads shaking .
No offence Dan but Jordan who crippled palace and ran off like a whippet when he fcked them over ,his opinion and that of his guests hold no credibility whatsoever.
Just ask the palace fans.
Regarding the Article ,more fluff form Morgan .
He(Jordan) reminds me of a certain know it all on JustArsenal DK 😂
Hasn’t been seen or heard of for a while and aren’t we all having some great debates with no name calling?
Even SueP and I agreed to disagree about Ozil without falling out – good on you SueP 👍
But did he get a yellow or a red card Ken?😉
Or perhaps on holiday?
His 5th yellow became an automatic red…..
for how long?
Bit sad really Admin Pat, after all, he did provide some light entertainment😉.
For the readers that did not have to see the other comments which i deleted. Three hour arguments about petty points of grammar became a daily waste of my precious leaisure time.
Life is too short…..
my life is a lot less stressful now thankyou
Trust me
I been made aware of comments that dont get submitted
Not nice
Mos of us respect wenger but to delude ourselves that he did not decline in his competitiveness after the Invincibles is engaging in “Make Believe / Cognitive Dissonance”.
He overstayed when he could have left a bit earlier. He failed to read the atmosphere in the room and seemed to have been stuck in his little bubble.
Look at Pep. He knew when to leave Barcelona, Bayern and rumours are that 2024/25 season is going to be his last at Man City.
Look at Klopp. Let Dortmund. He has just left Liverpool this season.
Fergie read the room and left Man United at the right time.
But I still think that Wenger is more ideological than all those managers. He would have stayed at Arsenal for a bit longer as long as the Higher Ups did not give into the fans disgruntlement.
So what your saying, is he’s a human being just like the rest of us then?
Was Pep a success at Bayern?
Did Fergie choose the right successor to his throne?
Did Klopp not fail in his last season after pool were tipped for the quadruple?
The dressing room? Pray tell me what you mean by that?
It seems you wanted Wenger to be a Teflon manager, but to date there never has been one – pep losing the cup final proves that!!
@Ken
You always clutch at straw when it comes to wenger and a certain other player.
So Pep read the room at Bayern so the best thing was for him to leave.
Klopp read the room at Liverpool and left in time.
Fergie read the situation at Man United and left. And it does not matter what suggestion he put forawrds to replace him. And I hope Man United and other clubs learnt a lesson from the Fergie / Moyes situation. They gave into their fergie sentimental pandering. They let Fergies overbearing influence on the club cloud their professionalism, objectivity etc by letting him choose his own successor. They let their sentiment for Fergie slip up. What they should have done was do a proper professional vetting process for the right manager instead of just going by what Fergie decided. Because Fergie had no experience in highering managers. He had experience in identifying / managing players, no managers. But the main point is that Fergie had the self awareness to read the room at United and left at the right time.
Wenger just remained in his little delusional bubble at Arsenal for longer than he should have. He seemed to have lacked self awareness.
But always trying to convince oneself to the contrary is playing “Make Believe / Wishful thinking, and cognitive dissonance”.
We keep arguing the same thing every season since he left.
I think that the vast majority of Arsenal fans even some of us that were labelled the “AKB’s” = “Arsene Knows Best” had to wake up from our own bubble and accept the reality that Wenger was done and he was not going to take us any farther as a club.
And I bet that if you were to conduct a proper survey of match attending Arsenal fans together with the online fans and asked them a question: “Do you think wenger overstayed / should have left earlier than he did?”
I think the vast majority would accept that wenger should have left well before he did.
Many people on this site don’t want to face up to the fact that as time went on certain aspects of Wenger’s approach were no longer effective and we were continuing to lose touch with other elite clubs. It is worth noting that almost universally, there is praise for the early years which were clearly transformative.
Where Morgan’s perspective is controversial relates to the period just after the invincibles with rise of MC and Chelsea. It should be remembered that even though there was disappointment many fans stuck with Wenger even though we didn’t win a significant trophy for almost a decade. Most recognised that we were not on a level playing field. Getting Arsenal into the CL consistently was therefore commendable. After a time however questions are bound to be raised if as a supposed elite club you qualify for a tournament but have no hope of winning it.
Of course, eventually, we dropped out of qualifying for the CL altogether. This and other factors presented a whole new set of challenges for the manager and his successors; these are regularly ignored by certain people.
There is a regular underhand attempt to unfavourably compare the years after Wenger left without considering the circumstances. IMO, Arteta, in particular, came into a situation that was far more daunting than the one faced by Wenger himself when he first took over.
Some time ago I asked people to compare the first team when Wenger was manager with the first team when Arteta became manager. Alongside this it would be interesting to compare the other contemporary elite teams.
David
You/we cannot ignore that circumstances played their part but neither can I ignore the quality of our defensive unit when AW arrived. Equally, I can’t ignore the difficulties he faced when trying to remain competitive and deal with the “other Stuff” that affected his final years
I really loathe (in capital letters) how there is so much that divides the Arsenal community. Wenger was a class act and we should be grateful for Arteta showing he has substance too
@SueP and @David
The problem is that we have a minority / extreme group of people on each side..
Then you have the rest who are in the middle.. Those in the middle acknowledge the overall (Ups and Downs) of the Wenger administration. So they will praise wenger when it is warranted and also be state some hard truths about him..
On the wenger had little to be criticised about Side will get mad when you tell some tough / not so fluttering truths about his tenure.. It’s was never his fault but the fault or everyone / everything else other than him,
On the Wenger was rubbish side, they will not even try to acknowledge the success or certain tough circumstances he faced. Everything that went wrong was because of him.
So some of are left walking on eggshells trying to no upset either extremes. They are so bought into their Black or White narratives.
So Goonster, you see yourself as being the one who knows best and I applaud you for your knowledge.
I actually don’t clutch at straws when defending Arsene Wenger, I look at his time in the managers position, what he had to do, how the PL changed, what backing he got and when (in my humble opinion) he should have retired.
Let’s take the situation when he arrived :
There was a drink and gambling culture that he had to sort out.
There were players who needed replacing, either because they were not good enough, or they were wrong for the system he wanted to play… sound familiar?
Then, in 2005, Abramovitch arrived, rescued a club that was hours from going out of business and spent, literally, billions to make them successful.
Just three seasons later, along came the Saudis, who, again, ploughed obscene amounts of money into the club they bought and, if you care to check the results, this changed the PL table from that day forward.
Where was Arsene Wenger and what was the club doing about this?
Well, as they had no idea the above was about to happen, they decided to build a new, state of the art stadium.
Where was the money coming from you ask?
Would our club do what Abramovitch and the Saudis did and use their own money?
No, the stadium was funded by loans, loans that were only granted, if Arsene Wenger agreed to sign a five year contract. Why do you think they insisted on that, before agreeing to loan the money?
Meanwhile, Mr Kronkie had bought the club outright and insisted the club had to be self sufficient – unlike city, chelsea, liverpool and united our main rivals.
In fact, Mr Wenger was forced to sell his top players in order to ensure that the Kronkie self sufficient model was kept and HH gave you examples of players who said that they didn’t want to leave the club, but were told that, for financial reasons, they were to be sold.
Despite all of the above, Arsene Wenger kept the club going and, after 2008, against all the odds, we saw attractive, attacking football that resulted in the club qualifying for the elite european competition year after year, right up until he missed out on said competition by, I believe one point… having beaten city and chelsea to win the fa cup and become the only manager in said competition to win it seven times.
Along the way, we suffered some humiliating defeats, sold top class players to our immediate rivals and bought some players who were not up to the standard required… but we still had European football.
Of course Mr Wenger stayed too long, as he admits himself if you care to find out, but it was the club who asked him to stay and offered him a two year contract.
I’ve said so many times that Arsene made mistakes, simply because he’s a human being, but the time, effort and personal damage to his personal life trying to make our club the best in the world, deserves the recognition that he doesn’t get from a section of the fanbase… just as Mikel Arteta isn’t getting the recognition he deserves for the last two seasons.
I hope this post shows you where I’m coming from and, if you see things differently, that’s your opinion…but I remember what happened and will always have Arsene’s back when accusations are made that are not true.
Ken1945
I have a question that I’d like to put to you regarding the money that was at AW’a disposal for spending on transfers. My husband has been preaching to me now over a number of years that AW did have a decent transfer kitty and didn’t use it. Is this a falsehood?
Thanks
SueP, Arsene has been quoted as saying that he wouldn’t buy a player if, in his opinion, said player didn’t improve the squad.
The information below I obtained from Google, along with the dates :
2.10.21.
During his 22 years at the club, Arsene signed 162 players at a cost of £700 million and won 16 trophies.
02.10.21.
His biggest coup was when he signed Anelka (his first signing) for £500 thousand and, two
years later, sold him (against his wishes) for £22.5 million.
To give some perspective :
26.3.24.
Since December 2019, four and a half years, Mikel Arteta has spent £600 million on 26 players.
He has won two trophies.
His biggest coup is, probably, Martin Odegaard.
I’ll leave you to work out the average seasonal spend and the average cost per player.
Ken, I take it you’re counting the CS as a trophy, which then would mean Arteta has won 3 trophies.
Indeed HD.
The Ngolo Kante story says something.
Wenger knew about him for years but decided he wasn’t good enough.
Really? I thought Kante joi Ed chelsea for much more money
Oh and trophies….
I’m referring to before he joined Leicester; even before he joined Caen.
Of course, by the time he had played at Leicester it was clear to everyone. And Chelsea had their beady eyes on him.
So what your saying David is that Arsene had a terrific sense of spotting talent at an early age then?
The fact that he decided Kante wasn’t what he wanted, was his opinion – just as he thought Anelka WAS what he wanted.
If your looking for someone who never made a mistake, then MA and Willian, Lokonga, Cedric and Mari would put you off him as well then?
Ken1945
Thanks for your reply
I’ve just been able to pick up on it, only to see that the topic has gained numerous extra posts which surprised me a lot.
I asked you because I know you have an in depth knowledge of AW.
I’m not sure that your answer, or possibly the way I put the question has helped.
I wasn’t trying to compare both him and Arteta, but rather understand why AW didn’t splash the cash a bit more. I have read HD’s post below and the £100m quoted and this is where I’m confused by his unwillingness to use the funds that my dearly beloved says were available. You said Wenger would only spend if he thought that it would improve the team. If that was truly the case then I’m surprised, as spending for the sake of it would be daft but investment in the squad I’d have thought, was a vital part of moving the club forward. Anyway, thanks for all the effort you put into the details of your post
SueP, I remember when Wenger was asked the question, by Danny Fiszman, “What would you do if we gave you £100m to spend Arsene ?” He replied “I’d give it back to you”.
HD, ever asked the question why?
@SueP
I always felt that wenger was very nervous and uncomfortable with spending big money players.
@Ken
What you said about the whole wenger Post Abramovich / Oil money period is nothing new.
For about 10 years we the “AKB’s” as we came to be known recycled those talking points to death.
I was one of the people that used to overly use those talking points until 2015 when he refused to sign any outfield player and only signed semi retiring Petr Cech.. We needed more than just a keeper. Then he treated us with his famous go to catchphrase, I paraphrase: “We still have all the injured players (RVP, Rosicky, Wilshere, Diaby etc) to come back. We are always looking for players to add to the squad but those players have to improve us, we don’t sign players for the sake of signing, they have to be quality and can improve us, blah blah”.
From that 2015 summer transfer window I started taking off my “Wenger is the victim of circumstances” tinted glasses. No one can convince me that even with all these Russian / Sheikh oligarchs making it near impossible for us to compete that only a goalkeeper that summer was all we could afford, that would be ridiculous. We were so lacking in nearly all areas in the first team but he decided to just sign Petr Cech. I don’t care how poor we were as a club in 2015 but you can’t convince me that £10 million was all we could afford to spend that summer or that just a goalkeeper was enough.
And don’t forget in 2012 when he came up with that ridiculous “Getting in the Champions League places is like winning a cup” statement. I remember that night!when we had just had a tough game against Sunderland and with Spurs right behind us. Then he made that statement. It absolutely shocked me and my doubts about Wengers competitiveness at the Top level started forming. I started doubting and questioning my faith / trust in wenger taking us back to the top.. The 2015 summer transfer window broke me and I realised that I had been deluding myself all that time thinking it was just a money problem stopping Wenger from being more ambitious in the transfer market or on the field.
So I dropped the “It’s just all these billionaire oligarchs / Sheikh’s and lack of money at Arsenal” being the reason for all our on field predicaments. It had to do with wenger himself having lost his competitive edge and was just in his comfort zone overindulging his greatest fantasies and experiments in team building.
Then I started concentrating on his tactical awareness on the field. I was not impressed. We Played the exact way come rain or shine. His way of playing had clearly been found out by the other top managers but he seemed tone deaf to it. His signing were Square pegs in round holes.
We need a proper DM but instead he brings in washed up Free agent Flamini? We need a proper DM but instead he moved legs gone Arteta into that position. We need a proper CM but he instead moves little Santi Cazorla into that position? We need a better striker but instead we are messing about with the Suarez transfer. We are messing about with the Higuain transfer and then we end up with Ozil that we absolutely did not need at the moment. Let’s not talk about defenders.
Our style of going Gung Ho had been found out. But did we try to mitigate that? No, we just continued playing suicidal football and getting humiliated. It started getting irritating, frustrating and embarrassing.
We couldn’t be blaming the Owners, The Stadium, The billionaire sugar daddy clubs, The ungrateful frustrated fans, the Banks that forced wenger to stay at Arsenal etc. That was Wenger’s own responsibility on the type of players he signed and the kinds of setups he employed on the field..
He clearly thought his setup was fine even if the evidence clearly showed he had to adapt. But he refused to adapt.
Those are the kind of on field frustrations that brought me a to conclusions that Wenger was done at the very Top and that he should be looking to retire from managing at the Top.. He refused to evolve / adapt to the ever changing world of football.
Good on you then Goonster.
I’m pleased that MA has been recognised for getting the club into the CL – something that Pep said was his first priority each season.
Strange too, that even though he “refused to adapt” he asked the club to consider Mikel Arteta as his successor.
I wonder what he saw in him?
As for your views regarding Abramovitch and the Saudis – I am dumbfounded that you dismiss the impact it had on, not only our club, but the PL in general.
The same goes for the building of The Emirates and the power struggle between Kronkie and Usmanov, while the board did a U turn on selling their shares to the man who said the club had to be self sufficient and that he wasn’t in it to win trophies – yet the bigger issue for you was that we only bought a goalkeeper, while all the above was going on.
You can pontificate as much as you like about how you supported AW and how you changed your mind, methinks you complain to much.
Let’s agree to disagree on Arsene Wenger – he left seasons ago and his preferred choice is taking us forward.
@Ken
And you wonder why I said that it’s futile trying to have a mature objective conversation with the two Wenger Extremes..
You are just tone deaf.
So from all the accumulative points I made, from wengers own statements to his on field that I pointed out, you instead defaulted back to the “Wenger had little contribution to the predicament we found ourselves in back then”.
I listed the on field style of play, Wenger’s lack of awareness tactically even if his style had been founf out. The wrong players in the wrong positions. His lack of ambition on the field and was more focused on the economics when he should have been concentrating on his own on field predicaments. Etc..
His lack of competitiveness at the bery top. I stated many of my frustrations and they were to do with his tone deaf affairs in our way of play on the field.
But you failed to address any of them but instead pivoted to the “Wenger was the victim” the whole football atmosphere since the Billionaires and sheikhs showed up. So they stopped him from at least trying to buy / acquire the right players for the right problem positions in our team? What about the lack of tactically awareness, lack of tactical adaptation?
But you just sneakily deflected from addressing those main points I made.
Smh
Because I don’t agree with you – simple really.
And, of course, although you say the points I made “are nothing new” they are factual points that can’t be dismissed because they’ve been discussed before.
Did building the Emirates, Abramovitch, the Saudis and the taking over by the Kronkies affect our club then and still does today?
In his first years, when the objective was to win titles, Arsene achieved that. The 2006 UCL loss cannot be blamed on him. When the objective changed to keeping the club books healthy, he achieved that too. Despite some painful losses, we generally remained a top club. In my opinion, he should have retired at the end of the 2017 season having won the FA cup or started an active rebuilding of the team.
100% agree with you SS.
Ken1945
In many ways Goonster was agreeing with SS, you and my feelings about when Arsene should have bowed out. The FA Cup against Villa was a great win and my brother and I were proud Gooners to be there.
There was no doubt in my mind that Fergie got the league title and saw a chance to retire on a high. I thought that Utd needed revitalising. Although Klopp didn’t have the best season, he got a trophy and the love from the Liverpool faithful for his contribution to their revival. I’d agree that Pep didn’t have the same success at BM but he chose to leave in his own accord and should he depart next season on his own accord will be hailed one of the best our league has known. I think that AW’s departure was a bit tawdry and he deserved better than that and it was all so unnecessary
As an aside, I think Goonster wasn’t referring to the dressing room as such , rather the club as a whole. Well that’s how I understood it to mean.
SueP, I think most fair minded and thinking supporters DO understand the strengths and weaknesses of Arsene Wenger and how he propelled our club world wide.
My problem is is that I can’t accept the way he is judged by not winning the PL.
He did so much more for The Arsenal and I try to get that across in my own way, which sometimes seems as if I don’t see the negatives.
For SS
I agree with you on everything except for the time of leaving. I felt it should have been 2014 after winning the FA cup against Hull.
Some additions for debate.
Wenger’s greatest years according to me:
2006 – 2013. Ist position. By this time he was not ahead of the game (had no trump card) but just equal with others and no money to compete. Yet he still finished in the top 4 year after year. Once Henry complained that AFC spent less than Birmingham.
1998 – 2005: 2nd position. He was ahead of the game and had a trump card and thus achieved because of it. He needed to have won the CL final. Britain ruled half the world because of its trump card (The Industrial Revolution).
2014 – 2018: 3rd position. Despite winning 3 FA cups, he did spend money and I really felt he could have achieved more. Not being disrespectful to our greatest manager. Just saying it as I saw it.
Just read that Morgan believes that Trump being found guilty is a nonsense!!
Just about sums him up.
Ah!
I don’t envy my kids or grandchildren dealing with what comes.
I grew up post WW2 and watched the Falklands unfold. I never thought that Europe could be in such a difficult place now. Israel, Ukraine, Taiwan, Yemen and Myanmar to name but a few. It breaks my heart
Yes SueP, the world is a very scary place now. I honestly thought that the fall of the Berlin Wall in ’89 would make the world a safer place, how wrong was I.
Regarding the Falklands, I’ll never forget the night me and some mates were in a pub and another mate came in and said a friend of ours had been killed at Goose Green. RIP Corky.
Aw HD. Was never close enough to know anybody who gave the final sacrifice. Watching the helicopters bringing back the wounded was a shell shock and like you I cannot comprehend why autocratic figures today out their citizens through the trauma.
I wrote that I named a few and I gave no indication WHATSOEVER of support for or against any of the countries listed, I have no intention of getting embroiled in any further discussion with you on this or any football related topic.
There is no better word that can describe Piers Morgan than the word “stupid”. For how long will he continue to disrespect our most successful Manager. Does he have idea how we are able to spend 100million on a player to be able to compete at the top level?
In 2005, the bank that financed the emirate stadium requested that “Arsene signed 5 years contract to ensure the technical consistency to repay the loan. This was a pre conditional request for approval of the facility. Does Piers know the clubs Arsene said” no” to? PSG, Real Madrid etc.
Real Madrid for instance offered him to take total control of the club? How many managers will reject managing Raul, Fabio Canavaro, Guyi Hernandez to manage Gervinho, Bendtner and Shamakh?
For somebody at Piers’ level who has access to information, he has chosen to be deliberate ignorant so that he can be consistent in disrespecting Arsene.
Enoch Ussher, the building of the new stadium had started in 2004 when the club agreed the loan with the Royal Bank of Scotland.
Wenger never signed a 5 year contract in 2005, he signed a 3 year contract in 2004.
“When we built the stadium, the banks demanded I sign a five year contract” reported by many reliable sources HD and a quote from Arsene himself.
Here are the dates that Arsene signed his managerial contracts:
96 – 98
99 – 01
02 – 04
05 – 07
08 – 10
11 – 14
15 – 17
17 – 18
He refused to sign the five year deal demanded by the banks, such was his dominance at the time… but it happened, why would he make it up?
By the way, Mr Wenger is estimated to have been paid £87. 6 million during his time at the club – so the sacrifices he made were certainly not financial!!
Ken, this is what he said in an interview with France Football in 2017.
“To be completely honest, I have never worked more than during this period, between 2006 & 2015. I had signed a 5 year contract, because the bank required it whilst we were building a new stadium”.
He told France Football that he HAD signed the 5 year deal. As I’ve always said, the man is a liar.
Ken, he really should’ve been a politician, as they are also economical with the truth. Wenger signed a 3 year contract on the 27/10/04, as reported by The Guardian newspaper. Funding for the new stadium was secured in February, 8 months before Wenger signed that new 3 year contract.
But he was under contract when the banks lent the money and the new three year deal assured the banks that he would be there until the end of 2007, so from 2002 until 2007 the negotiations would have included the dates of his third contract.
If we’re arguing over a time scale, then OK, but are you disputing that the banks DIDN’T include Arsene as manager?
No, I’m saying what I’ve always said, that he never signed a 5 year contract.
He said that he pledged to stay as manager for five years.
The club obviously had no problem with what he said, they were more than happy to piggy back on his name and reputation in order to get the banks money.
I’m sorry HD, but to call Arsene Wenger a liar is sickening and I have nothing more to say.
No Ken, he’s said he signed a 5 year contract, when in fact it was a 3 year extension.
Sorry that it upset you, but it’s a fact that he’s a liar, and he’s done it a few times.
No, he pledged to stay as manager and the club never, not once, contradicted him.
Also, the club have never accused him of lying at any time.
It seems that it’s fans with an agenda are the ones doing that.
This is definitely my last word on the subject, as I find your accusations distasteful to say the least.
As I posted previously, sorry I upset you.
So when he gave that interview with France Football saying “I signed a 5 year contract, because the bank required it whilst we were building a new stadium” was he telling the truth ?
Wow, can you believe that JustArsenal actually had an article about this in 2016, whil Wenger was stll n charge!
https://www.justarsenal.com/can-arsene-wenger-prove-his-latest-wild-claims/50197
And here is the original BBC article
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/36172291
Sorry to chip in on your interesting discussion with Ken, but did the 3 year extension then make it a combined total of a 5 year contract? If so, then in effect he was truthful in saying he’d signed for 5 years.
I’m not taking sides here, just using my own weird logic😜.
Jax, no need to apologise. Yes it was a 3 year extension, but in his interviews he said he had signed a 5 year contract. Maybe it’s just me being pedantic, but I always prefer the truth.
Jax, that’s the point I was making and let’s not forget that translation can often be lost.
Why on earth would Arsene claim something that can so easily be checked?
I read the articles that Pat put up from previous years and someone asked what other statements Arsene had made that were also deemed to be untrue…. just as today, there were no examples forthcoming.
😉
Yet , we have some fans that develops hatred towards the likes of RVP, nasri, fabregas and others because of their lack of loyalty to the club but accused arsene for staying too long. That’s his weakness though, he got too personal with his job. How could a coach reject a club like real Madrid andddecided to stick with a club you knew his going into tough period. Even Ancelloti dump Everton for them at the first call and look at the result. The question is there any coach that would made that same decision in such situations? I guess NO. But really he should have left us then and we would have been having different conversation by now. At least we won’t have being so ungrateful.
But at least we’re spending now but unfortunately no league triumph yet. Why? Simple, because of the Saudi funded club. But No, to some its just an excuse.
But, any fan that’s demanding loyalty from players but criticizing arsene is an hypocrite.
The only player I’ve had a problem with over leaving was Fabregas, and that was because of the way he went about it. He went on strike to force his move !!
As for Wenger turning down jobs at the other clubs, that was because they all had a DoF, something he didn’t agree with, as it took away the power of the manager.
Chronicle, I take great pleasure in watching what has happened to chelsea, once the Abramovitch endless stream of money was cut off.
Also by the way they were punished for breaking the rules.
I am certain that, in time, city115 will also be uncovered to have broken the rules.
The most annoying thing is that MA and his players have been denied two PL titles because of the delaying tactics used by city115 and the total incompetence of the powers in charge.
Of course city are STILL making a mockery of the PL, as they and chelsea have done since 2008 and 2005 respectively, but I’m told that these are OLD reasons put forward and shouldn’t be used today.
I suggest that one looks at where both clubs were before those dates and what they had won, versus the PL, CL and FA cup results since then and up to the present day.
Anyone who cannot see that the scenario of money buying titles etc are not seeing the picture properly and, to reinforce my point, just look at our own club’s results in the PL, since the owners started to plough the money in.